Episode Nine: From Track to The Cloud – the Layers of Railway Systems

How to Build a Railway is a twelve-part podcast series exploring the story behind the construction of the UK’s new high speed rail line.

In this episode, we explore how it all fits together – how we integrate our rail systems.

Rail travel has come a long way over the years. Now, with advances in technology, demands of a growing population and faster, greener trains, we’re already underway with the complicated procedure of systems integration to ensure every aspect of the railway works together – from day one of operation.

From the inner workings of the Washwood Heath Control Centre to the complex world of integration, this next episode explores the many layers of rail systems needed to ensure our trains operate safely, efficiently and on time.

Featuring:

• Chris Rayner, Stations and Systems Delivery Director, describing the layers of various systems in place to make HS2 possible and how it differs to modern rail – from tunnel evacuation procedures to giving passengers broadband levels of Wi-Fi.
• Kathryn Montgomery, Senior Manager – Train Service Delivery, takes us through the Washwood Heath Control Centre and how learning from outside the industry has influenced its construction.
• Nassar Majothi, Director of Systems Integration, explains how the different systems communicate with each other along with challenges like cyber security.
• And Professor Clive Roberts, Director for UK Railway Research and Innovation Network, gives a history of rail systems internationally, along with the research being undertaken to assure the future of high-speed rail systems for years to come.

Episode Nine – From Track to The Cloud – the Layers of Railway Systems (transcript)

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Episode transcript

This is a transcript of episode nine of HS2’s How to build a railway podcast, first published on 25 April 2023.

Fran Scott

Hello, I’m Fran Scott and this is How to Build a Railway

In the past few episodes, we’ve heard about the construction of tunnels, bridges and stations. But this week we’re looking at what brings all this infrastructure together to create a functioning rail line. This episode is all about systems and the importance of seamless integration. A modern railway system like HS2 is not one single thing, it is a complicated layering of lots of individual systems.

0:47

Chris Rayner

Okay, so that’s in essence the track slab system or the track system we have.

You then have an overhead line system. That’s a system in its own right. You then have the power supply system that sits behind the catenary rail system.

We then have an M&E System which is the most detailed part of it is our tunnel ventilation.

The next system to talk about is our train control system. So we have that we’re using the European standard system called ETCS, European Train Control System.

1:29

Fran Scott

That’s Chris Rayner HS2’s Head of Systems, and as you can hear a modern high speed rail system has a lot of different parts.

1:40

Chris Rayner

We then have our centralised systems that go in our network control. So those are train control, or traffic management and a bunch of other engineering systems that sit in control. And we have, an ops comms element to this. So this is the communications fibres that are needed up and down the railway to link together things like the train control system, and communication systems.

We then have a radio system.

2:19

Fran Scott

The UK’s rail system is nearly 200 years old and as it has developed over time it has become a lot more complicated.

2:29

Prof. Clive Roberts

There’s a whole set of reasons for that.

We’re using much more technology, we’re asking much more of our systems, greater speed, much more interoperability, there’s much more expectation from passengers, it’s much busier. So, as we progressed through time, projects have moved into this really complex stage, they take many, many, many years. So over the last 40 or 50 years, people have started to think much more of railways as a system. And over the last perhaps 20 years in particular, people have been putting much more of a system thinking and systems engineering construct around large projects, like HS2.

3:09

Fran Scott

Clive Roberts is a professor at the University of Birmingham, which is part of an organisation called UKRRIN, the UK Research and Innovation Network.

3:19

Clive Roberts

UK Research and Innovation Network is comprised of eight founding universities and 13 founding private companies. And it was conceived back in 2016 and finally funded in 2018. And what it does is it brings together researchers in universities with private companies to really accelerate the throughput of research and innovation, just to make stuff happen quicker. So it gets out of our labs and into the real world. And we get benefit to passengers to saving costs, and much more quickly.

3:54

Fran Scott

A lot of UKRRIN’s work focuses on making incremental updates to a very old network.

4:01

Clive Roberts

We really what we would call “sweat our asset”, we really ask an awful lot of it and more than many other places in the world and more than a quite a lot of modern railway. So at the University we obviously work in Britain, but we work all around the world because Britain has particular expertise on how you take old infrastructure, old railway infrastructure and move it to the modern age and get an awful lot out of it get lots of operations, lots of train movements out of it in in relatively good efficiency and punctuality.

4:33

Fran Scott

But HS2 provides an opportunity to create a truly modern railway system and each element of the system has been carefully selected to ensure the railway can run efficiently for decades into the future.

4:47

Clive Roberts

There what we’re doing is thinking much more around how we get the maximum benefit out of the system, and how we make sure that when the railway opens, on day one, its performances, as you’d expect it for its own whole life. It has high levels of punctuality, high levels of reliability, and dependability.

So there’s some real opportunities to have a step change in the technology with a new railway. And we haven’t had a new rail or airway of this scale for centuries.

5:18

Fran Scott
One of the key systems for any rail network is the signalling system.

In the early days of the UK rail network trains moved slowly enough for drivers to receive hand signals from “policemen” hired by the railway companies.

As trains have got faster, signalling systems have developed from trackside semaphore signals to now the use of LED lights which are more reliable.

But UK trains are restricted to speeds of 125 mph, because any faster and drivers won’t be able to see the track side signals.

And with HS2 trains going 225 mph any trackside signalling system was just not an option.

6:14

Chris Rayner

we’re using the European standard system called ETCS, European Train Control System. We are like most other new railways, so we’re putting it in, we’re adopting the level two, it comes in three levels, level one, level two and level three, we are adopting level two ETCS.

And it’s pretty essential for our high-speed line. We’re going far too quickly for drivers to register and respond to line side signals before anything like full line speed. So the drivers are driving on an in cab display.

6:55

Fran Scott

This means drivers will be shown all signals digitally from a screen inside the train. HS2 is not just an ordinary high-speed line but is also aiming to be one of the busiest high speed lines in the world.

7:10

Chris Rayner

Because of the frequency of our trains, we are having to provide an automated overlay on to the ETCS.

7:18

Fran Scott

The automated train operation or ATO overlay, means the trains are doing a lot of the decision making on their own.

7:30

Chris Rayner

In fact, the train is doing most of the supervision there on our train. So that so the drivers really supervising the supervisory system, if you see what I mean. So, you know, decisions like “Do I speed up or slow down? Am I keeping up with time?” All of those things are done automatically. And the driver is literally supervising the controls as the train decides exactly where it is, with respect to other trains.

8:03

Fran Scott

With so many trains moving so fast along the high-speed line a lot of importance will be placed on the control centre.

8:11

Kathryn Montgomery

So the vast majority of the decision making will take place in the control centre.

8:17

Fran Scott

Kathryn Montgomery is the Senior Manager for train service delivery.

8:21

Kathryn Montgomery

So, what that means is that I am responsible for developing the network integrated control centre and the organisation of future staff who will work there once the room is built.

8:35

Fran Scott

And designing and staffing the control centre for HS2 is particularly important as they will be responsible for making sure the service runs smoothly from day one.

8:49

Kathryn Montgomery

The Control Centre staff have a lot more information than the driver. They see the big picture whether the driver or train captain just sees a very, very small picture. So the train captain will essentially carry out the instructions of the staff in the control centre to the extent that because we’ve got automatic train operation, the train captain won’t have any expectations about which platform is routed into them at Birmingham Curzon Street say, you know, he will just be routed into the platform that the traffic management controller fits best with the overall service.

9:30

Fran Scott

The new control centre will be situated in Washwood Heath on the outskirts of Birmingham.  To figure out the best layout, Kathryn went and looked round other major control centres in the UK, starting with the new Crossrail Control Centre in Romford.

9:47

Kathryn Montgomery

I think the one lesson from Crossrail and everyone I’ve spoken to on the Crossrail project has said the same thing. The one lesson is really to involve the end users very early. That Control Centre was designed without a train operating company on board. And even without end user representatives from the infrastructure manager involved in the design, the layout, and really the functional requirements.

10:17

Fran Scott

HS2 have an ergonomics team working with the control centre’s architects to ensure that the layout and design is best suited to people who are working in a safety critical environment.

10:28

Kathryn Montgomery

Obviously, things like attention, distraction, fatigue, workload, both under load and overload have a huge impact in a safety critical environment. So we really need to make sure that we’re doing everything we can to make that environment as pleasant as possible for that end workforce. 

So we’ve got a fantastic ergonomics team here in HS2. And the EDP ergonomics team worked really closely together with the architects, the end users to really ensure that the design of the control centre has that end user in mind. And that goes down to quite a lot of detail really, it’s partly about the facilities within the building, but also just being cognizant of what it feels like to work in an environment like that.

It’s a 24/7 environment, and depending on shift pattern, you can arrive at work in the dark and go home in the dark and not really feel like you’ve moved from in front of a screen all day. So, it’s really important that we use things like natural daylight to try and improve the ambiance of the control centre.

And that comes down to things like heating and ventilation and light, you know, not having glare shining on the monitors, and making sure that they’re comfortable. And the key thing is, is for that, is having enough space and a flexibility of space.

12:05

Fran Scott

But Kathryn didn’t just visit control centres of other rail networks, she also visited control centres from other industries.

12:16

Kathryn Montgomery

Probably the most interesting place we visited was the Sizewell B nuclear facility.

Obviously, there’s some parallels there in terms of another safety critical infrastructure manager. But the thing we were most impressed about, that was their approach to training, they’ve got an identical control room set up in their training suite, identical right down to the pictures on the wall and the order of the files on the shelves.

12:46

Fran Scott

Someone working in a regular network rail control centre might deal with some form of systems failure or another every few weeks, but with brand new state of the art systems staff in the HS2 control centre may spend years before dealing with a live system failure.

13:09

Kathryn Montgomery

So it could be five years before one of our traffic management controllers deals with a point of failure in real life, which of course means doing it in practice, in training, even more important.

13:22

Fran Scott

No two control centres are the same, and understanding the optimal layout before operations are underway is almost impossible.

13:32

Kathryn Montgomery

So we don’t for one minute think that the layout of workstations we have for trial operations will be the appropriate layout of workstations for when we’re running 10 or 14 trains an hour, so having that flexibility to move those around place people place different roles next to other roles as it emerges that they need to speak to them more than we perhaps envisaged in the first place.

So having that flexibility baked into the design is key. And one of the ways we’ve done or to safeguard that in the NIC design is by having a large square room. And then you can do pretty much anything inside that if you’ve got a long thin room, you’re immediately very constrained by where you can put workstations etc.

14:23

Fran Scott

Another reason flexibility is key is that Kathryn and her team can have an agile approach to allow for new systems and technologies that might come along.

14:35

Kathryn Montgomery

The whole building is based on assumptions, assumed levels of functionality in the systems that the people will be operating, which in turn leads to assumed numbers of staff that will be required, were expecting to get some very sophisticated controls and systems, which will automate a lot of the routine tasks and free up the operators to really concentrate on the high value tasks. However, if that doesn’t come to fruition, and there is a little bit more manual operation required, then we’ll obviously need more people to do that.

15:11

Fran Scott

Part of the reason for this is because Chris and his team have been meticulous in making sure each of the systems being used are the absolute best available.

15:21

Chris Rayner

The overhead line system, when we were thinking about specifying it, we could have left the choice of the system open to the market and said, look, what we want is a overhead line system, it needs to be simple for 360kmph. Off you go. We decided not to do that because the overhead line, the choice of the overhead line, in the sense of long-term reliability is so important.

So, we ran a competition, an international competition for provision of an overhead line system, we’ve got a specification, and that led to us selecting SNCF for a system called V 360, which is their standard TGV network overhead line system upgraded for 360 K operation. So, in doing that, we’ve got a system that has been proven in many, many years of high-speed operation in France on the TGV network, and we get the benefit of all of those years of reliability.

So that’s kind of one example of where we really think we’ve chosen either the best or one of the best systems in the world.

16:42

Fran Scott

By taking the time to ensure the best systems available are being used Chris believes that HS2 can run with extremely high levels of punctuality and reliability from day one.

16:54

Chris Rayner

Most of the problems that people encounter on the conventional route is because systems are old, and there’s a problem with keeping up with renewals.

I mean reliability, per se, of the railway, with assistance we’ve chosen, should be the same level of reliability of High Speed One which is operating, you know, with 10 to 15 seconds of delay per train on average. You know, and the fact that it’s measured in seconds probably tells you how reliable it is. And that’s what we’re aiming for in terms of reliability. You can obviously, you can do that with new systems and a brand-new piece of infrastructure.

17:34

Fran Scott

One of the biggest areas where systems failures can occur and lead to major delays is with the integration. That is making sure all the subsystems that have been created can work together.

17:43

Nassar Majorthi

That is one of the problems that has persisted on major programmes in the past. Generally, the idea has been buy all the subsystems, let the contractors deliver them. And we’ll come along at the end and connect everything up and hey, presto, it will work. So that really is a fallacy.

So Crossrail, on the whole did a really good job, right, they got through a large part of the programme and made most of it work. It only takes a few things, though, for projects, to not be able to open into passenger service. So, the real lesson is that the devil is in quite a lot of details.

18:30

Fran Scott

Nassar Majorthi is the Director of Systems Integration at HS2

18:35

Nassar Majorthi

Systems Integration is about managing complexity. So we’ve got a very complex programme of work, lots of engineering, technology, lots of interfaces, ultimately delivered across multiple contracts and schedules. So that’s a very complex picture.

And systems integration is about managing the technical aspect of that, to make sure all the different parts of HS2, all the different elements, we call them subsystems, they all come together to deliver a working functional railway for our end users, the passengers essentially.

19:22

Chris Rayner

When you think about design of electrical systems, where every if you think about the 1000s of interfaces, between two electrical systems, when you’re dealing in the sense of a railway, and making sure that any changes to the interfaces are compatible. So if one designer changes, the 1000s of interfaces they’ve got with another designer, all of that works. Then you think about, about software and software compatibility, changes to software on the rolling stock, for example, being compatible with software on the infrastructure,

All of that is a very, very complicated web.

20:02

Fran Scott

One of the main things HS2 is doing to make sure the integration process goes smoothly is having Nassar and his team in place so early.

20:11

Nassar Majorthi

One of the key things that we do is ensure that there’s a focal point for integration. So, everybody on the programme knows we’ve got a department who does integration. So, kind of just from an organisational perspective is really important.

20:26

Fran Scott

The integration team must first identify how each of the contracted-out subsystems will link together.

20:32

Nassar Majorthi

We identify the interfaces between the systems so that when we contract them and procure them, it’s clear how the contractors are expected to fit them together. Beyond that, we also specify how those other subsystems will work. We call that functionality. So how will each of the subsystems function? And how does that all add up to the operation of the railway?

20:56

Fran Scott

Nassar and his team will then work with the contractors to ensure that as systems develop, they can ensure integration always remains a key consideration.

21:06

Nassar Majorthi

It will literally be just that, just providing technical assurance to make sure, as we develop and deliver each of our contracts, it is being progressively integrated. There’ll be other areas where we as a client need to provide a lot more leadership, the more complex areas, and in those we’ll have to be a lot more involved to make sure that all of the parties involved with a with a particular interface are all progressing with the same ideas, assumptions, requirements, so that it all does fit together.

21:38

Chris Rayner

Whereas probably five years ago, before Crossrail, we’d have probably taken the same approach that Crossrail took, with the experience of Crossrail, and the lessons from there, we’ve, we’re taking this completely different approach.

21:53

Fran Scott

Even the smallest failure in integration can lead to delays, and to make sure all the systems can be up and running smoothly on day one, the HS2 systems team are leaving plenty of time for testing.

22:08

Nassar Majorthi

We do system integration progressively all the way through, and we really, really start to see the results of that, once we start getting into the kind of detailed design phase, now we can see what are we getting integrated products back from our supply chain. And we start doing things like factory acceptance testing, and then on-site testing, but we’d like to really bring that earlier and call that ‘left shift’ and try and do as much off site as we can. So, we have made the decision to invest in a system integration facility, where we’ll bring together subsystems and developing software modules, and ask our supply chain to work together as early as possible to test all of that software and all of those interfaces functionally, before they get anywhere near being on site.

23:02

Fran Scott

Along with testing the system integration years before the launch of HS2, Clive Roberts and a team at the University of Birmingham are building a digital simulation of HS2 to test out how all the systems will work when the railway is operational.

23:21

Clive Roberts

They’re mathematically driven, so they follow the laws of physics, so the trains in and accelerate exactly against the laws of physics, stuff you might have learned when you’re setting GCSE or O Level classes are the kind of things we’re modelling around these complex systems. So, we have these, these physics models that basically model the movement of the railway. Overlying that, we have the control systems, the digital control systems, and we model those things as well.

23:48

Fran Scott

The hope is the model will be able to run an exact digital replica of HS2 and prove the functionality years before the physical line is operational.

23:59

Clive Roberts

Now early on in our simulations, before things began to specify, we have quite general models of the railway, because we roughly know what kind of trains might have been procured, and we know roughly what kind of signalling. But as we move through the project lifecycle, as we’re doing now, we can make those much more specific, we’re now beginning to know much more about the parameters of the trains, for example, in a few month’s time, we’ll know much more about the signalling system as that is officially procured. So, what we can do is refine our models over time.

24:28

Fran Scott

The plan is for this model to continue to be used once the railway is operational.

24:34

Clive Roberts

So, the model that we’re doing, and have developed, is precise enough that we can feed real world data into it both through the testing phase, but actually in the operational phase.

So, what we will enable us to do is run the model in the shadow. So, imagine in the background, a model that’s predicting all the time what the railways are just about to do next. As things start to veer off, so we’ve under a perturb situation where maybe something’s going to go wrong, the model can stop shadowing the real world, and then project forward all of the different opportunities that there might be to recover from that in remembering that the railway is really complex, it is really difficult for humans to predict all of those things.

But the computer can run off and do all sorts of different scenarios and work out what may be the best scenario to follow. So that means that what we have, if we develop this model through the life, beyond the life of the project, building the project, actually into the operation of the railway, that we have this tool that can predict into the future.

25:37

Fran Scott

By adding sensors and collecting data from the line’s physical infrastructure and feeding that data into the model, it can be used to predict when failures will occur.

25:51

Chris Rayner

We’re equipping a number of trains in the fleet to be monitored, so that as the train runs, it helps monitor as well as monitoring itself and communicating with the Control Centre, it helps it monitor the infrastructure. So, track conditions, track deterioration, any imperfections in, in the running table, all of that gets transmitted back. The infrastructure itself, almost every aspect of the infrastructure, overhead line point, switches and crossing systems. All of those systems are monitored, particularly switches and crossings where, you know, in kind of common language points or points failures tend to plague the national infrastructure, so all of that is monitored, so we get an early warning of any failures, we get. We get information on whether on Route temperature conditions, all of the things that engineers would need to monitor.

26:50

Fran Scott

Not only will the model help with deciding the best time to replace an asset, Kathryn believes it will also be a big benefit for the staff in the control room.

27:02

Kathryn Montgomery

I think there’s benefits there from a training perspective. It will give the staff who essentially work in an office a real sort of frontline view of the coalface as well. I mean, it can be very difficult in a control centre to really grasp the size and scale and speed of the real way out there. Being located on the rolling stock deck means that the staff will have that overview and they will see the trains which quite often in railway control centres, it’s not always the case. But the digital twin does allow the Control Centre staff to really visualise the asset and also put themselves in the position of those who are out there on the track the maintenance staff, the train captains etc.

27:54

Fran Scott

Now the more that rail systems rely on data collection and technology the more important cybersecurity becomes.

28:03

Nassar Majorthi

I mean, the railways in general, and we just do specifically our national, nationally important piece of infrastructure and will be targets of cyberattacks and that kind of security threat. We’ve seen in other countries where that has had big impacts on the operation of the railway, impacted passengers, and costs a lot of money. So it’s a really key thing that we have to design for. 

28:34

Clive Roberts

The railway does have some really specific things, particularly around signalling and control, where we need to be particularly focused because they’re bespoke systems to the railway. So we do a lot of work thinking about ensuring the security of signalling systems. Type testing these sorts of systems we’ve, we’ve done work at the University that has done this at the European level to focus on cybersecurity issues.

29:02

Fran Scott

While work is being done to ensure that the systems are secure from cyber threats, work is also being done to make HS2 the most connected railway in the world.

29:15

Chris Rayner

These days, people want to work or interact socially, using broadband. So, our objective was to provide this as part of the infrastructure build, it’s important because coming back and retrofitting this later on an operational railway is really expensive.

The fibre capacity that we’re providing for the operational system, when you provide fibre capacity you always provide so there’s plenty of dark fibres to use for all sorts of things. And so, you know, fibre capacity is not a problem. 

But the speed of the trains, and making sure that you penetrate the coach side and all that stuff reliably has been a little bit of a challenge, which we’re kind of through. But the aim is you can carry out a telephone call, but you can also operate at pretty reasonable broadband speeds sitting in a train. And we think it’s probably even though other railways are trying to catch up, we think this will be just about the best connected railway anywhere in the world when we open.

30:25

Clive Roberts

And again, with HS2 we have the opportunity to really think about the architecture carefully, early on, knowing that we’re going to have to worry about cybersecurity knowing that we want to be able to have all sorts of passenger services, but also all sorts of safety critical services as well. And we can focus on the architecture at this stage, which really helps de risk some of these issues as well.

30:52

Fran Scott

HS2 is a major piece of infrastructure that will be around for more than 100 years, so it is important for the systems team to consider not just how they will work on day one, but decades into the future.

31:07

Clive Roberts

The railway will actually operate for 100 years or more. And the thinking that we do at this early stage is really important to make sure that we don’t have a system that’s high energy, or we don’t have a system that is really difficult to maintain, and therefore costs a lot to operate. We have a system that can be changed over time, because we know, although we’re building something that’s state of the art at the moment, it won’t be state of the art in 30 years time.

So, the kind of things that are being done now are things around, really considering those questions, looking at what the sort of sensitivity of changing to the railways, how it can be expanded how it can be flexible, to make sure we do we enable the railway to be future proof in terms of the things we might want to do into the future.

31:57

Fran Scott

For now, the focus is on making sure that on the day HS2 opens, all the systems required to run the line will not only be ready but working together smoothly. And that lessons are learned from Crossrail and from other projects so that on the day the first time the systems are required to work together, that the integration of these systems is not the cause of delays.

32:23

Chris Rayner

One of the other lessons from Crossrail is be realistic about what you can commission to. If you try and commission every aspect of the railway all at once, you’re probably going to fall over. So again, we’re trying to take this systems approach, so we get an operational railway first and then if other aspects of the railway, you know third party coms. If that has to come a bit later than that’s the right thing to do.

32:53

Nassar Majorthi

I’d be lying if I said we didn’t view this as a high risk area, because we do. And that’s why we’ve put in place an earlier team and approach and a framework to deal with this is a genuinely high risk thing. And it’s a central part of interest whose role is to act as the prime systems integrator, so we really recognise that it’s our job to pull all this together. It’s a hugely difficult thing to do. So, we’re building our confidence as we go along. So, at the moment, my competence level is moderate

We’ve got 10 years, 10 years ahead of us you know, doing this so it’s a really big risk is a really big risk is one of our top risks perhaps on top risk and it will require an immense effort both in terms of engineering but also behaviours, collaboration, contractual support scheduling support to integrate all of this. It’s really central to the whole the whole endeavour.

34:03

Clive Roberts

I believe it’d be perfectly feasible in the future to have close to 100% reliability.

There’s some real issues around achieving that, one is having dedicated railways, where we’re not making the system too complex. So having one type of train so, if you look at metros, metros around the world have the highest level of punctuality occurrence currently, and because they have a system where they have one type of train and then one type of track one type of signalling and that really enables you to focus in that way.

The other is designing out failure modes thinking much more carefully about what’s caused you problems in the past and making sure that in your future systems and those failure modes are present and very much that kind of analysis and thinking is going on within HS2 at the moment and other current modern railway projects.

35:15

Fran Scott

Next time on How to Build a Railway…

35:20

Andrea Davidson

We want to have zero carbon electricity from day one of operation. But in saying all of that, what we build and how we operate is great, but it’s how we build it. That’s as important.

35:35

Emma Head

We already have 19 diesel free sites, we’ve seen a lot of our contractors be really innovative, and looking at investing in different plant and mechanical equipment, looking at sources of electricity, looking at hydrogen fuels and hybrid plant so that we can really start to accelerate cleaning up our construction sites.

35:56

Carl De Souza

Our laboratory is the field, we use portable emissions measurement system, PEMS, as we call it, we take these lab grade instruments out into the field.

36:09

Daniel Marsh

We’re working with contractors, and they’re looking to break even or make a profit. If you can have interventions that’s actually going to save money and reduce emissions at the same time, then that’s an absolute Win Win.

36:22

Steve Bradby

Without HS2, we probably wouldn’t be, we wouldn’t have the courage to do what we’ve done. So HS2, hats off, absolutely brilliant project, and it will push the industry on.

36:33

Emma Head

The legacy for HS two will be that infrastructure for future generations. But in addition, we will have also learned some lessons for construction along the way, and will have developed new working practices and new materials to really help to clean up construction.

36:57

Fran Scott

Your host has been me Fran Scott

Thanks to our guests Chris Rayner, Clive Roberts, Kathryn Montgomery and Nassar Majorthi.

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